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	<title>Comments on: Down with IE6? Tell it to Microsoft</title>
	<atom:link href="http://erisds.co.uk/internet/down-with-ie6-tell-it-to-microsoft/feed" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://erisds.co.uk/internet/down-with-ie6-tell-it-to-microsoft</link>
	<description>Web development, Symfony, Wordpress and general geekery</description>
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		<title>By: John Wright</title>
		<link>http://erisds.co.uk/internet/down-with-ie6-tell-it-to-microsoft/comment-page-1#comment-181</link>
		<dc:creator>John Wright</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Jul 2009 07:12:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://erisds.co.uk/?p=125#comment-181</guid>
		<description>their*
(and probably other mistakes)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>their*<br />
(and probably other mistakes)</p>
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		<title>By: John Wright</title>
		<link>http://erisds.co.uk/internet/down-with-ie6-tell-it-to-microsoft/comment-page-1#comment-180</link>
		<dc:creator>John Wright</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Jul 2009 07:09:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://erisds.co.uk/?p=125#comment-180</guid>
		<description>Hey Eris, 

I see your point, and I agree, IE6 will not truly die until completely phased out by Microsoft. That being said... I&#039;ve had an idea for a while and as with many ideas I&#039;ve had, this idea came with a great desire to do it! So I did it, I created Death To IE6 http://deathtoie6.com, which is a script website owners can install on there site to attempt to help IE6 users to upgrade and optionally block IE6 users from their site. 

From some of the feedback and reaction to the site, I&#039;ve come to the conclusion that at least 50% (I said at least) of all IE6 use is by a computer locked to it. And admittedly this script will only cause problems for those.  I mean, I can see the scenario where someone is searching for something, they find the info on a blog with this script, they get redirected and can&#039;t upgrade, and basically miss out on the info that would be available to them had this script not been installed (although I think this would be a rare occurrence).

But on the other hand, I&#039;m relying on website owners to make the judgment whether this is something they want to do. I understand that this script is not for all sites. Usage of it should depend on factors like what percentage of your visitors are on IE6, how much traffic the site gets overall, do you feel strongly enough about trying to help users upgrade that you are willing to potentially reject traffic to your site? 

I&#039;m assuming that most people who would install something like this probably wouldn&#039;t get enough traffic or have a big enough audience to matter much. And it&#039;s worth it to them if they can direct someone to upgrade. I&#039;m sure there are still people out there using IE6 unwittingly. My mom was one case until recently lol.

In the end, we are all looking forward to saying good bye to IE6, and I suppose with or without scripts like this, your right, when MS pulls the plug, the end is near for IE6. 

This is just my 2 cents. Hey thanks for following on twitter! That&#039;s how I found your blog!

Take care,
John</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey Eris, </p>
<p>I see your point, and I agree, IE6 will not truly die until completely phased out by Microsoft. That being said&#8230; I&#8217;ve had an idea for a while and as with many ideas I&#8217;ve had, this idea came with a great desire to do it! So I did it, I created Death To IE6 <a href="http://deathtoie6.com">http://deathtoie6.com</a>, which is a script website owners can install on there site to attempt to help IE6 users to upgrade and optionally block IE6 users from their site. </p>
<p>From some of the feedback and reaction to the site, I&#8217;ve come to the conclusion that at least 50% (I said at least) of all IE6 use is by a computer locked to it. And admittedly this script will only cause problems for those.  I mean, I can see the scenario where someone is searching for something, they find the info on a blog with this script, they get redirected and can&#8217;t upgrade, and basically miss out on the info that would be available to them had this script not been installed (although I think this would be a rare occurrence).</p>
<p>But on the other hand, I&#8217;m relying on website owners to make the judgment whether this is something they want to do. I understand that this script is not for all sites. Usage of it should depend on factors like what percentage of your visitors are on IE6, how much traffic the site gets overall, do you feel strongly enough about trying to help users upgrade that you are willing to potentially reject traffic to your site? </p>
<p>I&#8217;m assuming that most people who would install something like this probably wouldn&#8217;t get enough traffic or have a big enough audience to matter much. And it&#8217;s worth it to them if they can direct someone to upgrade. I&#8217;m sure there are still people out there using IE6 unwittingly. My mom was one case until recently lol.</p>
<p>In the end, we are all looking forward to saying good bye to IE6, and I suppose with or without scripts like this, your right, when MS pulls the plug, the end is near for IE6. </p>
<p>This is just my 2 cents. Hey thanks for following on twitter! That&#8217;s how I found your blog!</p>
<p>Take care,<br />
John</p>
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		<title>By: Kamal</title>
		<link>http://erisds.co.uk/internet/down-with-ie6-tell-it-to-microsoft/comment-page-1#comment-141</link>
		<dc:creator>Kamal</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Jun 2009 22:01:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://erisds.co.uk/?p=125#comment-141</guid>
		<description>Well, as long as one feels obliged to provide *full* support for IE6, they are unfortunately amongst the people keeping the browser alive and counted as a major browser! Agree to Steve&#039;s comment, that the customers are locked in, and its way beyond MS and IE6. Sadly, i believe it&#039;s MS that has created this horrible trap for themselves which has translated into enormous pain for web devs around the world.

There&#039;s no eventual way to get out of a lock-in like that except incurring additional costs - be it in a platform upgrade to adopt newer technologies OR to get stuff developed that works on dated browser software. Our choice - in case we want to fully support IE 6 - is, so far, limited to whether we wish to incur that cost ourself or pass it on to the customer who made a choice that resulted in this lock-in (even if unknowingly)! Although the point on additional cost only applies if the customer wants to support &quot;all the real browsers&quot; + IE6, obviously.

I, for one, believe in being responsible for my choices and expect others to be responsible for theirs. Is that asking for too much or is that being unfair?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, as long as one feels obliged to provide *full* support for IE6, they are unfortunately amongst the people keeping the browser alive and counted as a major browser! Agree to Steve&#8217;s comment, that the customers are locked in, and its way beyond MS and IE6. Sadly, i believe it&#8217;s MS that has created this horrible trap for themselves which has translated into enormous pain for web devs around the world.</p>
<p>There&#8217;s no eventual way to get out of a lock-in like that except incurring additional costs &#8211; be it in a platform upgrade to adopt newer technologies OR to get stuff developed that works on dated browser software. Our choice &#8211; in case we want to fully support IE 6 &#8211; is, so far, limited to whether we wish to incur that cost ourself or pass it on to the customer who made a choice that resulted in this lock-in (even if unknowingly)! Although the point on additional cost only applies if the customer wants to support &#8220;all the real browsers&#8221; + IE6, obviously.</p>
<p>I, for one, believe in being responsible for my choices and expect others to be responsible for theirs. Is that asking for too much or is that being unfair?</p>
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		<title>By: Steve</title>
		<link>http://erisds.co.uk/internet/down-with-ie6-tell-it-to-microsoft/comment-page-1#comment-111</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Jun 2009 07:55:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://erisds.co.uk/?p=125#comment-111</guid>
		<description>Eris,
Some good feedback and I think its come around to everyone understanding that Microsoft does not control the life-and-death of IE6  --  the customers do.  Legacy systems have been around forever (hence the name), and we continue to struggle and be haunted by them.  I have Oracle ERP java applications requiring IE6 and Java 1.4.  It took us months to come up with a configuration that runs on XP instead of 2000 and no way to get to Vista or Windows 7.  That&#039;s just the way it goes.  Customers cannot upgrade because they have old software that will not run on new operating systems, or browsers and they are locked in.  It goes way beyond just Microsoft and IE6.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Eris,<br />
Some good feedback and I think its come around to everyone understanding that Microsoft does not control the life-and-death of IE6  &#8212;  the customers do.  Legacy systems have been around forever (hence the name), and we continue to struggle and be haunted by them.  I have Oracle ERP java applications requiring IE6 and Java 1.4.  It took us months to come up with a configuration that runs on XP instead of 2000 and no way to get to Vista or Windows 7.  That&#8217;s just the way it goes.  Customers cannot upgrade because they have old software that will not run on new operating systems, or browsers and they are locked in.  It goes way beyond just Microsoft and IE6.</p>
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		<title>By: ErisDS</title>
		<link>http://erisds.co.uk/internet/down-with-ie6-tell-it-to-microsoft/comment-page-1#comment-85</link>
		<dc:creator>ErisDS</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Jun 2009 10:59:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://erisds.co.uk/?p=125#comment-85</guid>
		<description>Amen to that!

BUT that doesn&#039;t mean you don&#039;t have to TRY to make your website look reasonable* in all browsers. It&#039;s called graceful degradation (or progressive enhancement depending on how you work) NOT I-can&#039;t-be-arsed-to-do-my-job-properly-so-I-won&#039;t-bother...

*Note the use of the word &quot;reasonable&quot; not &quot;pixel perfect&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Amen to that!</p>
<p>BUT that doesn&#8217;t mean you don&#8217;t have to TRY to make your website look reasonable* in all browsers. It&#8217;s called graceful degradation (or progressive enhancement depending on how you work) NOT I-can&#8217;t-be-arsed-to-do-my-job-properly-so-I-won&#8217;t-bother&#8230;</p>
<p>*Note the use of the word &#8220;reasonable&#8221; not &#8220;pixel perfect&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Rob Mason</title>
		<link>http://erisds.co.uk/internet/down-with-ie6-tell-it-to-microsoft/comment-page-1#comment-84</link>
		<dc:creator>Rob Mason</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Jun 2009 10:25:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://erisds.co.uk/?p=125#comment-84</guid>
		<description>http://dowebsitesneedtolookexactlythesameineverybrowser.com/

:)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://dowebsitesneedtolookexactlythesameineverybrowser.com/">http://dowebsitesneedtolookexactlythesameineverybrowser.com/</a></p>
<p>:)</p>
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		<title>By: ErisDS</title>
		<link>http://erisds.co.uk/internet/down-with-ie6-tell-it-to-microsoft/comment-page-1#comment-31</link>
		<dc:creator>ErisDS</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Apr 2009 13:20:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://erisds.co.uk/?p=125#comment-31</guid>
		<description>I agree wholeheartedly that it is our job to support IE6 and that it should be supported to the best of our abilities. However that fact alone doesn&#039;t make IE6 any less of a pain in the arse and there is nothing like a good moan (especially for us Brits).

I completely disagree with the idea of putting a &quot;best viewed in&quot; or using any script or stylesheet to make the user experience in IE6 particularly bad. I think it&#039;s unprofessional and just bad form. 

Rather, IE6 users are in some cases going to have a downgraded user experience because the browser just doesn&#039;t support new technologies, and IE6 shouldn&#039;t hold us back from using HTML5 and CSS3. Learning techniques for graceful degradation is now a key part of our job and will keep the web ticking over until the eventual death (with flames, chanting and much celebration) of IE6.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree wholeheartedly that it is our job to support IE6 and that it should be supported to the best of our abilities. However that fact alone doesn&#8217;t make IE6 any less of a pain in the arse and there is nothing like a good moan (especially for us Brits).</p>
<p>I completely disagree with the idea of putting a &#8220;best viewed in&#8221; or using any script or stylesheet to make the user experience in IE6 particularly bad. I think it&#8217;s unprofessional and just bad form. </p>
<p>Rather, IE6 users are in some cases going to have a downgraded user experience because the browser just doesn&#8217;t support new technologies, and IE6 shouldn&#8217;t hold us back from using HTML5 and CSS3. Learning techniques for graceful degradation is now a key part of our job and will keep the web ticking over until the eventual death (with flames, chanting and much celebration) of IE6.</p>
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		<title>By: Luke Jones</title>
		<link>http://erisds.co.uk/internet/down-with-ie6-tell-it-to-microsoft/comment-page-1#comment-30</link>
		<dc:creator>Luke Jones</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Apr 2009 11:28:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://erisds.co.uk/?p=125#comment-30</guid>
		<description>I say this every time people complain about Internet Explorer 6, it&#039;s our job to adhere to our clients needs and &lt;i&gt;their&lt;/i&gt; clients needs, so refusing to design for Internet Explorer 6 and complaining about it won&#039;t do a thing, there are still millions of people around the world using the software, so we should just get on with it and not complain, and if anything just write in the footer: &#039;Works best in Firefox, Safari &amp; Internet Explorer 7+, if you&#039;re using Internet Explorer 6, please upgrade&#039;.

Whilst I don&#039;t agree with it, why not hack Google and stick an IE filter in so there&#039;s something with a ridiculous z-index that doesn&#039;t allow the user of IE6 to do anything until they upgrade</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I say this every time people complain about Internet Explorer 6, it&#8217;s our job to adhere to our clients needs and <i>their</i> clients needs, so refusing to design for Internet Explorer 6 and complaining about it won&#8217;t do a thing, there are still millions of people around the world using the software, so we should just get on with it and not complain, and if anything just write in the footer: &#8216;Works best in Firefox, Safari &amp; Internet Explorer 7+, if you&#8217;re using Internet Explorer 6, please upgrade&#8217;.</p>
<p>Whilst I don&#8217;t agree with it, why not hack Google and stick an IE filter in so there&#8217;s something with a ridiculous z-index that doesn&#8217;t allow the user of IE6 to do anything until they upgrade</p>
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		<title>By: Rob Hawkes</title>
		<link>http://erisds.co.uk/internet/down-with-ie6-tell-it-to-microsoft/comment-page-1#comment-29</link>
		<dc:creator>Rob Hawkes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Apr 2009 09:03:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://erisds.co.uk/?p=125#comment-29</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote cite=&quot;Wizely&quot;&gt;Or you could all stop trying to over-design every pixel!!!!&lt;/blockquote&gt;

That&#039;ll never happen! I do agree that for some clients we can&#039;t just drop IE6 entirely, just yet. However, like both of you mentioned we can scale back support in the sense that we don&#039;t provide any of the new-fangled features that come with CSS3 and having a modern browser. What will be interesting, and possibly an uppercut to IE6, is when HTML5 is finally supported across the modern browsers, including in-browser databases. This will certainly provide a feature that IE6 will find impossible to support without the use of server-side code.

The next few months are going to prove extremely interesting.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote cite="Wizely"><p>Or you could all stop trying to over-design every pixel!!!!</p></blockquote>
<p>That&#8217;ll never happen! I do agree that for some clients we can&#8217;t just drop IE6 entirely, just yet. However, like both of you mentioned we can scale back support in the sense that we don&#8217;t provide any of the new-fangled features that come with CSS3 and having a modern browser. What will be interesting, and possibly an uppercut to IE6, is when HTML5 is finally supported across the modern browsers, including in-browser databases. This will certainly provide a feature that IE6 will find impossible to support without the use of server-side code.</p>
<p>The next few months are going to prove extremely interesting.</p>
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		<title>By: Wizely</title>
		<link>http://erisds.co.uk/internet/down-with-ie6-tell-it-to-microsoft/comment-page-1#comment-26</link>
		<dc:creator>Wizely</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Apr 2009 12:41:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://erisds.co.uk/?p=125#comment-26</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve worked in big companies that supply work with other big companies and IE6/ Windows 2K is everywhere so you can&#039;t just decide to &#039;take the law into your own hands&#039;. If your client&#039;s target audience is these companies then you&#039;re letting your designer sensibilities dictate, not the client&#039;s needs - that&#039;s a bad designer. If the audience is savvy  techno-thangs then sure drop it like a puss-oozing leper.
Why not do as Eris advises? Design for the modern browsers in a way that degrades for IE6. It doesn&#039;t matter if it looks a bit different as long as it works.
Or you could all stop trying to over-design &lt;em&gt;every&lt;/em&gt; pixel!!!!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve worked in big companies that supply work with other big companies and IE6/ Windows 2K is everywhere so you can&#8217;t just decide to &#8216;take the law into your own hands&#8217;. If your client&#8217;s target audience is these companies then you&#8217;re letting your designer sensibilities dictate, not the client&#8217;s needs &#8211; that&#8217;s a bad designer. If the audience is savvy  techno-thangs then sure drop it like a puss-oozing leper.<br />
Why not do as Eris advises? Design for the modern browsers in a way that degrades for IE6. It doesn&#8217;t matter if it looks a bit different as long as it works.<br />
Or you could all stop trying to over-design <em>every</em> pixel!!!!</p>
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